This is a short presentation given to two of the REF 2029 People Culture and Environment Indicators Workshops, organised by Vitae and Technopolis, as part of a larger consultation and indicator development process for the next Research Excellence Framework. These slides reflect a combined series of insights into these questions from James Wilsdon, Stephen Curry and Elizabeth Gadd, who together wrote the 'Harnessing the Metric Tide' updated review in 2022 (which was one of a number of inputs to the early thinking about the design of the next REF assessment).